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Post by milofultz on Nov 5, 2008 0:49:14 GMT -8
Seriously, why'd you leave? I'm on a roll here.
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Post by username on Nov 5, 2008 0:49:59 GMT -8
Oh, I know all about Rev. Wright. I have my doubts about Obama's actual ideology because of that and many other reasons. But at the end of the day, it comes down to the fact that I think he's wrong. There's nothing wrong with knowing things about people. There is something wrong on judging people by those facts and not by who he is. Everything else aside, I feel like Obama's specific policies as well as his outlook are antithetical to what I think is tight. What I think of his outlook comes not from his past, but from how he frames his argument. He speaks in terms of us-vs-them, rich-vs-poor, young-vs-old, Obama-vs-Bush. I believe he thinks that's how the world works. I don't believe that. I believe this is world is not us-vs-them but just us individually interacting with each other and making informed decisions based on the information available to us.
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Post by Sean Sultan on Nov 5, 2008 0:50:16 GMT -8
WTF? Answer my claims. Look them up. No. If you are just going to throw out claims that you have no research for then I'm not going to do it for you. I'll address one statement: There are clear records that Obama did not attend church on the occasions that what you saw on TV occurred. He was out of town. Really read his second biography, he wrote it before the Rev. Write thing and it's pretty clear that the Rev. had nothing to do with his own political development. In fact he didn't start actually going to that church until quite recently (maybe 5-10 years). Besides, I'll openly admit that I disagree with my pastor on several matters yet I still go to the same church. I don't really know if you go to church but I know that for a lot of other people who aren't part of The Faith it's hard to understand how a person can have a religious leader for a certain amount of time and not be influenced by them but I have had Creationist pastors and teachers all my life and I still believe in evolution. I could go on but I have a point to make.
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Post by username on Nov 5, 2008 0:52:42 GMT -8
Sean, I actually agree with you on this one, though I think Milo has some legit concerns about black liberation theology even more than Rev. Wright. But then again, I don't think these are the most constructive arguments.
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Post by Sean Sultan on Nov 5, 2008 0:53:09 GMT -8
I would like to distrust him for who he has associated himself with, but I don't, really, any more than I distrust him because he's black. Those are prejudices that I think hurt the actual process of debate. I distrust Obama because he might believe that he can tell other people how they ought to live their lives. Honestly, I distrust any politician for that same reason. At the same time, I believe that the policies that he supports are so disconnected both with reality as I know it and from what policies he perports to advicate that I can't help but think that he either doesn't know what he's talking about or he doesn't care what he is talking about. Those are the only options I'm left with, because I think that he is wrong. It's not so much a character judgment on my part as it is a necessity of my position. To me, you have to justify a pretty big thing when you justify removing a person's freedom. If I don't think the price is worth it, I can't support it. I don't feel like just because he's not trustworthy, I shouldn't vote for him. I feel like I shouldn't vote for him because I disagree with him. And in the end, that's what casting your vote should be about, I think. Agreed. But it's not who he associated with, that's not a problem. It's the fact the he had been part of that church since the mid-80's where he became a Christian. It's not like he's along for the ride, no, this is the man who brought Obama to God. WTF? Read this: www.newsmax.com/kessler/Obama_Church_Racism/2008/01/07/62285.htmlNo. He didn't bring him to God.
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Post by milofultz on Nov 5, 2008 0:55:05 GMT -8
WTF? Answer my claims. Look them up. No. If you are just going to throw out claims that you have no research for then I'm not going to do it for you. I'll address on statement: There are clear records that Obama did not attend church on the occasions that what you saw on TV occurred. He was out of town. Really read his second biography, he wrote it before the Rev. Write thing and it's pretty clear that the Rev. had nothing to do with his own political development. In fact he didn't start actually going to that church until quite recently (maybe 5-10 years). Besides, I'll openly admit that I disagree with my pastor on several matters yet I still go to the same church. I don't really know if you go to church but I know that for a lot of other people who aren't part of The Faith it's hard to understand how a person can have a religious leader for a certain amount of time and not be influenced by them but I have had Creationist pastors and teachers all my life and I still believe in evolution. I could go on but I have a point to make. Did you see the article I posted. He started going BECAUSE of the pastor in the MID-80'S. That's about 20 years. Then all of a sudden, when people realize his church is...different, he disowns the church. Coincidence? I think not. Unresearched? I sat and counted the number of times he voted "Present" here: www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=9490Sorry, that was harsh. I'm just really frustrated. You can't just say somebody's facts are unfounded unless it's the troll thread, foolio. At least ask for my sources. Which reminds me, what are yours? Oh, I know all about Rev. Wright. I have my doubts about Obama's actual ideology because of that and many other reasons. But at the end of the day, it comes down to the fact that I think he's wrong. There's nothing wrong with knowing things about people. There is something wrong on judging people by those facts and not by who he is. Everything else aside, I feel like Obama's specific policies as well as his outlook are antithetical to what I think is tight. What I think of his outlook comes not from his past, but from how he frames his argument. He speaks in terms of us-vs-them, rich-vs-poor, young-vs-old, Obama-vs-Bush. I believe he thinks that's how the world works. I don't believe that. I believe this is world is not us-vs-them but just us individually interacting with each other and making informed decisions based on the information available to us. Very valid point. I like you're ideology, also. Kudos.
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Post by milofultz on Nov 5, 2008 0:56:51 GMT -8
Sean, I actually agree with you on this one, though I think Milo has some legit concerns about black liberation theology even more than Rev. Wright. But then again, I don't think these are the most constructive arguments. I am confused. Agree on what? And that is true, this is kind of going in circles. Although Obama's voting record is very interesting. For a man who is for Change, he never initiated a new bill and voted Present that many times. Interesting for such an influential man.
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Post by username on Nov 5, 2008 1:06:15 GMT -8
Sean, I actually agree with you on this one, though I think Milo has some legit concerns about black liberation theology even more than Rev. Wright. But then again, I don't think these are the most constructive arguments. I am confused. Agree on what? And that is true, this is kind of going in circles. Although Obama's voting record is very interesting. For a man who is for Change, he never initiated a new bill and voted Present that many times. Interesting for such an influential man. I agree with you in thinking that making something like the Rev. Wright thing such a big deal is probably out of proportion to its importance. Not to say it isn't important, but more that the amount of attention given to it versus how important it probably is is far too much.
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Post by milofultz on Nov 5, 2008 1:08:26 GMT -8
Oh, alright. That makes sense. I don't know. I have valid points, they aren't adressed. Avoidance? I dunno. Frustrating, mostly.
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Post by username on Nov 5, 2008 1:14:17 GMT -8
The most we can ask from anyone else is to look at the information we have available. If they don't feel as though they need to, then so be it. I'm not going to tell them they are wrong for not looking at what I offer. I can just offer more information and hope for the best.
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Post by milofultz on Nov 5, 2008 6:02:15 GMT -8
Yeah, but going into an argument and then not doing your part is just frustrating. But understood, I can't make people argue well and/or the way I want them to.
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Post by Shayne the Kid on Nov 5, 2008 8:09:54 GMT -8
I honestly believe that race had very little to do with the campaign. I think it had more to do with the effectiveness of the campaign and the chrism(which may be just as much a concern as if race had been a real factor) of the candidate. Absolutely agree. His race only crossed my mind 2 years ago, and since then, never. He's just a person and most of America realized that.
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Post by Sean Sultan on Nov 5, 2008 8:23:45 GMT -8
Milo, I'm sorry but it was midnight and I was tired. As to my sources, they are my grandfather. His sources are both of Obama's biographies and his constant watch on the campaign. I didn't get to read that article I just skimmed it, I'll read through it more but my feeling is that they don't have the right credentials and are just trying to stir up trouble.
Also if you had researched throughly you would have found, among other things, that McCain made a key note speech to acorn 2 years ago. I couldn't find it but I've seen it before and I'll keep looking for it. That alone convinces me that you have not researched the issues throughly.
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Post by Sean Sultan on Nov 5, 2008 8:35:07 GMT -8
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Post by milofultz on Nov 5, 2008 9:50:36 GMT -8
Milo, I'm sorry but it was midnight and I was tired. As to my sources, they are my grandfather. His sources are both of Obama's biographies and his constant watch on the campaign. I didn't get to read that article I just skimmed it, I'll read through it more but my feeling is that they don't have the right credentials and are just trying to stir up trouble. Also if you had researched throughly you would have found, among other things, that McCain made a key note speech to acorn 2 years ago. I couldn't find it but I've seen it before and I'll keep looking for it. That alone convinces me that you have not researched the issues throughly. I was tired at midnight as well, and slightly pissed off at every Obama supporter due to the fairgounds event because they're assholes there. Sorry. The ACORN issue I didn't look at thoroughly. Agreed. But the other ones, yes, I did.
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